Microsoft Releases IronRuby ...

[rebolprophet]

http://www.devsource.com/article2/0,1895,2162969,00.asp

[Gabriele]

A MS REBOL? 150 MB? Who in the world would ever use something like that?

[rebolprophet]

A MS REBOL? 150 MB? Who in the world would ever use something like that?

150 MB ? Are you kidding when ou download eclipse it's the same and eclipse is huge success and who cares about dev platform size what's matter is on the client side. With CLR no matter what's language when the framework is already installed with the OS.

Also as it is said "what makes the DLR stand out in this instance is its integration with Silverlight. Silverlight is a cross-browser, cross-platform plug-in, akin to Adobe Systems Inc.'s Flash, for delivering the next generation of media experiences and RIAs (Rich Internet Applications) for the Web."

So what will be Rebol future when the next generation of RIA come ? Will it able to integrate ?

You wanna know why I ask you all these annoying questions ? I have the opportunity to introduce rebol in a big fortune 100 ... but the lack of visibility in Rebol Future prevents me to do so because the questions I'm asking they will ask me also and I am not able to answer positively until now. I don't desperate that one day it would change but just a hope

[Gabriele]

150 MB ? Are you kidding when ou download eclipse it's the same and eclipse is huge success

I don't use Eclipse.

and who cares about dev platform size what's matter is on the client side.

I do. And, 150MB would be client size. Visual Studio++++++ will be 8 GB.

With CLR no matter what's language when the framework is already installed with the OS.

Well, on one thing we agree, with CLR no matter the language, it sucks the same. That's why REBOL should not be there. The language matters.

[rebolprophet]

[quote author=rebolprophet link=topic=967.msg2434#msg2434 I don't use Eclipse.

That's the problem: you don't seem to know WHY and WHAT really makes thing a success. In fact even SUN made the mistake of "Java Purity" when refused the eclipse project whereas IBM accepted it. You risk to do the same mistake of "Rebol Purity". You don't want to mix; it's kind of racial mantra: do you feel so superior to the rest not to mix with the rest of the world

I do. And, 150MB would be client size. Visual Studio++++++ will be 8 GB.

It's the DEV platform not the user software size. As for dev are you so mean that you can't afford 1T disk: I just bought one External LaCie 1Terabyte for 200Euros only not even the cost of Rebol License.

Well, on one thing we agree, with CLR no matter the language, it sucks the same. That's why REBOL should not be there. The language matters.

The PLATFORM matters more than the LANGUAGE today that's why all the editors are now releasing their LANGUAGE for FREE. You can have C++ Compiler for free. You can integrate VB Language in your own application for FREE. I cannot even integrate Rebol language in my own application by PAYING.

That doesn't mean I'm for language FREE because FREE means DEFLATION which kills small firm because long term they cannot compete. So if the rebol won't be able to compete economically how are you going to compete if you do not adopt the "Embrace competitors" strategy ?

That doesn't mean that I say CLR is good. CLR is the standard that every user is going to have. Remember Apple ? Everybody agrees they were the best but they were "alone" and the PC crushed them. Microsoft has even to enter in their capital so they will be kept afloat because if Apple were totally killed for sure they would be even more accused by Antitrust. But rebol is not even Apple: if rebol is killed only the tiny rebol community will care. Alas the tiny size is not enough.

And why the rebol community is so tiny ? Because people do not only learn a language for their hobby they hope to get a job. If Rebol is not demanded by enterprise no way people will be incited to INVEST TIME in Rebol. No way the huge majority enterprise will be interested in Rebol if Rebol doesn't integrate with the enterprise platform. That's common sense no ?

So when I read in Carl's Blog that Rebol doesn't enter the Big Enterprises because of its name which sounds like "Rebel" I find this explanation really funny But more seriously it shows that he has no clue of what the Big Enterprises really need. They need to GLUE together EXISTING applications, they need to maintain faster EXISTING applications.

So interfacing with applications which use Java, .NET is a real need. If you don't understand user's need you just miss the market. You're a Great Geek that's great but you're not a Great Entrepreneur.

[Gabriele]

That's the problem: you don't seem to know WHY and WHAT really makes thing a success.

I know. I just don't care. Otherwise, I would not be using REBOL at all.

The PLATFORM matters more than the LANGUAGE today that's why all the editors are now releasing their LANGUAGE for FREE.

That's wrong. The language is at the base of the platform. You have the wrong definition of the term "language". The machine code is a language. A virtual machine defines a language. "The technology at the base of every technology is language." REBOL is its own platform.

And why the rebol community is so tiny ? Because people do not only learn a language for their hobby they hope to get a job. If Rebol is not demanded by enterprise no way people will be incited to INVEST TIME in Rebol.

That shows how funny people are. What is better, to compete with millions of other people that know Java, or to compete with 100 or so that know REBOL well enough? That's just crazy. A good REBOL programmer doesn't even have to go search for a job - they'll come to you.

[rebolprophet]

That's wrong. The language is at the base of the platform. You have the wrong definition of the term "language". The machine code is a language. A virtual machine defines a language. "The technology at the base of every technology is language." REBOL is its own platform.

You play with definitions whereas you know perfectly what I mean: if just language suffices there would be no need of Windows or Linux: just program it yourself with assembly language ... or maybe with Rebol ?

What I mean by platform is of course a PLUGGABLE ARCHITECTURE so the very reason of the true success of Eclipse and before that of VB though as everybody VB as a language did suck but it was EXTENSIBLE though Activex and plugin.

I'm happy that finally Carl did realize that:
http://www.rebol.com/docs3/architecture.html

It's many years that I've been arguing for that on french forum, it's a pity that RT  didn't realize it sooner.

[Gabriele]

What you don't understand is that basically Windows and Linux are languages too - in the form of APIs.

But let's get to the main point: if RT wants to survive, should it try to compete with Sun and MS, or should it create a new market or attack a vertical market?

It's obvious that doing the former is suicide. That's why what you ask for makes no sense at all. Either we are different, or we are completely irrelevant. I would not care about REBOL a single bit if it didn't free me from the total mess that Sun and MS have created.

In any case, with R3 you can put REBOL everywhere you want, so you're perfectly free to hurt yourself as badly as you want. :-)

[rebolprophet]

What you don't understand is that basically Windows and Linux are languages too - in the form of APIs.

But let's get to the main point: if RT wants to survive, should it try to compete with Sun and MS, or should it create a new market or attack a vertical market? It's obvious that doing the former is suicide.

New market ? RT pretends that Rebol, precisely by saying that he pretentiously compete instead of embracing the big competitors so yes that's suicide. Just look at this forum I wonder if there are anybody else besides from you and me

That's why what you ask for makes no sense at all. Either we are different, or we are completely irrelevant. I would not care about REBOL a single bit if it didn't free me from the total mess that Sun and MS have created.

In any case, with R3 you can put REBOL everywhere you want, so you're perfectly free to hurt yourself as badly as you want. :-)

I don't want to put rebol everywhere, I just need rebol for example for what he's doing best: parsing. And I can't even do that until Rebol has interfacing capability : that's what RT is working on ... at the end, a bit late maybe because as you know 1 year in software is like 10 years in other industry.

You want to rebolutionize but you aren't even capable to foresee future and be reactive enough to do so ... but by the way I'm preaching in the desert I know

[Gabriele]

If the future is .Net, I'm sorry but I don't want to be there. I'd rather be a farmer than a programmer in such a world.

You can of course take the rebol.dll and put it anywhere you want, just don't come to ask me for support about .Net. (Neither should you expect *me* to do the work for you in integrating with .Net.)

[henrikmk]

I don't want to put rebol everywhere, I just need rebol for example for what he's doing best: parsing. And I can't even do that until Rebol has interfacing capability : that's what RT is working on ... at the end, a bit late maybe because as you know 1 year in software is like 10 years in other industry.

You can look at it in two ways: Should REBOL become OK at interfacing with other technologies or should it be truly, really excellent at interfacing with itself?

It's hard to get both, simply because very few people are working with software interfaces and protocols at this time. RT must choose.

Gabriele is very narrowly focusing on REBOL only, because of the amazing qualities it presents when REBOL stands on its own. It's very small, reliable and fast to work with, but it can still get better; When I first heard of REBOL/Services, it sent shivers down my back, because it basically allows a single man to develop and deploy an enterprise sized fully custom infrastructure for communication in a couple of weeks. You can't do that with anything else at this price!

This is the reason for REBOL/Services and this is also the opportunity to jump lightyears ahead of anything else, because it can simply replace slower, more complex and more expensive services. Without this, REBOL 3 will be less valuable for building infrastructure for enterprises.

This is harsh stuff for executives who think the bigger and more expensive the software is, the better it is. REBOL will not cater to these types and this is not the market for REBOL. Once people (particularly developers) realizes the strength in REBOL, the market will open itself.

The true strength of REBOL doesn't lie in that it might be OK in interfacing others and that you can use the PARSE function to parse stuff from other services, but that it can replace almost anything. I'd personally rather spend time polishing that strength, than spend time on interfacing random things.
Don't get me wrong. Interfacing is needed, but it's not the biggest priority. It's better to develop interfaces as a 3rd party, so RT can focus on REBOL itself.

Everything in my own software development pipeline, except the text editor to edit code, is REBOL based. I couldn't have built it with anything else.

[rebolprophet]

Interfacing is needed, but it's not the biggest priority. It's better to develop interfaces as a 3rd party, so RT can focus on REBOL itself.

Yes It's better to develop interfaces as 3rd party, that's what I've been saying for years EXCEPT that there was no way to do so easily since RT didn't have an extensible architecture until lately ... and I think that's too late.

The people who are active in Rebol Community are the VERY tiny minority who align with this vision. Don't ask yourself why the Rebol Community doesn't grow. When I read on Carl's blog it's because of Rebol's mantra Rebolution which frightens People this is of course a very farfetched explanation. I really worry that RT has really no idea of the HUGE market he is missing.

Now if RT can still survive like that in the coming years good luck to him. I guess it's more the investment fund that's behind that sustain him than the number of licenses he's selling. But as you know financiers are not saint and when they decide to go ...

[Gabriele]

I don't see how you could get this "huge market" if the language has to be made the same as any other language to get it. Either you open a new market, or there's just too much competition to be worth it.

[henrikmk]

Yes It's better to develop interfaces as 3rd party, that's what I've been saying for years EXCEPT that there was no way to do so easily since RT didn't have an extensible architecture until lately ... and I think that's too late.

It's never too late, when it comes to programming languages. Programming languages do not age in the same way or nearly as quickly as most types of software technology do, such as operating systems or webbrowsers. It will not be yesterdays obsoleted technology, like Microsoft's DirectX 8 or Apple's old Carbon technology. Are people leaving COBOL behind because it was last updated in 2002 and it's "too late"? No. There are still many COBOL related jobs available.
Its userbase is not going away anytime soon, until it's truly obsoleted by something that fits perfectly in its market and is truly superior.

Is it too late to learn COBOL? You are free to do so.

REBOL customer base was dropping because a large number of people have already been here, seen something great, were genuinely interested in it, but found dealbreaking shortcomings and left again. But they saw something great, and that's the important part. They won't forget that. That's what will make them come back, when these dealbreakers go away. It doesn't make real sense to be obsessive about the current number of REBOL users, when the language will address so many issues and user complaints.

I'd be very surprised if the community didn't grow perhaps 5-10 fold in size within a year after releasing the beta to the full public. Many of those will be old users. We're already seeing a slight increase, due to the appearance of tech notes, screenshots and how R3 will work, because it looks very appealing to them.

Why did I leave PHP behind? I found it to be a cumbersome and a badly designed language, yet I still keep an eye out for developments that might lure me back into it using it part time, because I remember being somewhat productive in it. Why do I glance at Objective C? Because Apple are producing Objective C 2.0 which has some interesting features which may make me use it one day.

The only three things that could really kill R3 would be:

1. R4.

2. If RT wasn't managed properly or was going to close down and take REBOL with it, leaving the community to create half hearted open source clones of the language. That would be similar to the current Amiga situation, and it would be highly destructive and demoralizing.

3. If REBOL was created by Commodore, Microsoft, Apple, or some other huge tech company, because you know, any executive without a clue would kill development of the language to save a few bucks and bury it in licenses and patents, and whip out the license and patent papers, if someone tries to clone it.
It's what they do and it has happened many times and will keep on going, so I hope there won't be a big money entity behind REBOL at some point, that would rip it apart and steer it in a direction that isn't in the interest of its users.
And then REBOL would too be only a fond memory, like the Amiga became. Being in a small, person and vision driven company makes it much harder to kill. Having just one guy behind the wheel is very helpful here.

[rebolprophet]

I don't see how you could get this "huge market" if the language has to be made the same as any other language to get it. Either you open a new market, or there's just too much competition to be worth it.

made the same ? are you kidding ? Rebol works on an OS. The .NET library is an extension of the OS. Above are the language. And scripting languages especially Ruby is on the trend of emerging thanks to .NET. And SUN has realized that also that's why its last version of EE they announced:

" You can now mix in JavaScript technology source code, useful for prototyping. Also useful when you have teams with a variety of skill sets. More advanced developers can plug in their own scripting engines and mix their favorite scripting language in with Java code as they see fit.

Perhaps You ThougHt yOu couldN't program with a scripting language and Java togetheR. Which will yoU Be trYing ? "

So is anybody here only aware of that or are you living in a closed world