Can REBOL3 reach critical mass?

[old_mac]

Let me say first that I REALLY like REBOL. My comments are not meant to detract from the language but rather see it flourish.

I come from MacPascal in 1984. As soon as I could get out of anal retentive Pascal I opted for Neon a super FORTH, that unfortunately died on the vine, and then became Mops, which I think is still around.  I suspect that REBOL is written in FORTH or Forth like 'C' because of it's tiny size and multitasking and stacking.

But FORTH is about other things than the internet and it remains a bit obscure to the main stream but finds use in academia. I have always questioned why this is. There are some very great books on FORTH that explain everything about the language, but it was never very widely used.

Perhaps it is too free form? Maybe programers like to be constrained by language 'rules'. Perhaps it makes them feel safe? I don't know, but I like the openness of REBOL, like FORTH. Define a word and do!

From what I can gather, Carl has the right approach to REBOL 3. Separate the platform specific code like access to Mac toolbox calls, .so , .dll library files etc. from the Core.

But to be adopted widely I think the following must happen...

1. The Core should be placed in public domain. I know Carl must make a living, but many programmers I have read, shy away from REBOL for this reason.

2. REBOL is missing many document nuts and bolts. While the documentation is there, it is also badly scattered. I should not have to ask on this forum about maximum string! type size. This should be documented. I only found out yesterday I can access 'fonts'. What else can I access from the system?

3. I need to know how limited REBOL is as well as how flexible it is. Can I call PHP functions on the server side for example or access Javascript libraries for wiz-bang effects. True that View has it's own effects but they aren't the same as the javascript libraries which people are becoming used to.

4. I spent a few hours yesterday looking at a new menu script. Seems to work fairly well on the Mac until you move the window and the drop-down menu failed to move. I know the programmer is using a window for the drop down and the whole thing is an illusion, but I can't have it breaking like that.

5. Can REBOL on the server side talk to the client side and exchange data like JSON? Not using JSON, but rather making REBOL pipes? I don't know.

6. Can I send HTML page header and footers in HTML and then send page content, that changes, in REBOL, without full page reloads? I don't know.

7. Can I use tags like in PHP or Javascript to embed REBOL script into an HTML page?

8. From the Mac side, support of Truetype fonts is absolutely imperative and at least some support of Aqua would be nice. I would love to break out of the browser but I'm sorry I can't tolerate bit map fonts, nor will my customers.

9. While the REBOL graphics extensions are interesting and gee-wizz, they are simply not what can be done with Javascript. Layers in HTML have become very important to my programming, but I don't have a clue how to access them in REBOL.

10. I guess what I'm saying is I would like REBOL to replace PHP, HTML, css and javascript and do things a new way. Rather than pages, I would like to send 'blocks' to the client's browser, perhaps even just 'words'

In summation, REBOL 3 must either re-invent the standard LAMP way of doing things with a better way or co-exist seamlessly with LAMP. It needs loud users, loud gurus and good documentation. In short a bunch of REBOLs! Then I think it may have a very good chance.

Please don't flame me for this, I'm trying to be honest and constructive, but I would appreciate comments since I'm new to REBOL. I hope you understand I'm viewing it with a naive REBOL but long experienced Mac POV.

ChrisD

[PeterWood]

Chris

Your questions seem very reasonable to me. I am not the bet person to answer but I will try to answer a few for you.

Rebol is written in C, I believe that both Forth and Lisp had an influence on the design.

1. I don't think that money is the reason that Rebol Core hasn't been open-sourced. I believe Carl has other reasons for keeping the source code under wraps.

3. You can call JavaScript from the Rebol browser plugin. In fact this is currently the only way to access the DOM of a webpage from the Rebol plug-in.

5. Rebol is very good at client/server data interchange; most Rebolers would say that JSON and XML come nowhere near Rebol in this respect.

6. By using the combination of JavaScript (XMLHttpRequest) and Rebol, you can achieve in-place web page updating.

7. Yes you can embed Rebol in webpages in a similar fashion to PHP and Java Server Pages by using Magic! (http://www.auverlot.fr/Fichiers.html) or RebolServerPages (http://www.ross-gill.com/techniques/rsp/).[url][/url]

8. I believe that Rebol3 will have improved Mac support "out-of-the-box" but it still may not be at the level Mac users require. The design of Rebol3 will allow the community to build a better Mac version.

10. I believe you can achieve what you want today with the current Rebol browser plugin....though it is easier with a Rebol client (View script).

I hope others more able than I will correct any errors on my part and fill-in the gaps for you.

Regards

Peter

[PeterWood]

ChrisD

The following example shows how to interact with JavaScript from the Rebol Browser:

http://www.rebol.net/plugin/demos/new-demos/sources/anim.html

also at:

http://www.ross-gill.com/r/anim/

Regards

Peter

[old_mac]

Peter

Thank you so much for your very complete answer to my questions.

I certainly understand Carl's need to keep the code proprietary at the moment. I guess potential users of REBOL would like to know that they would not be stranded in a worst case scenario. I think they feel that open source offers some kind of comfort zone... real or imaginary, in my view more imaginary.

Cheers

ChrisD